The karma theory is based on the individual experience of the birth, life, death, and the world as a reality whereas Sage Sankara says the world is an illusion.+

Discussion: ~ 

T. L. Bown: ~ This is how my understanding sees Karma.

Karma is whatever is. Yes, it is the play of duality forces as birth, living in the world universe and death of body-mind that is identity "I" thought.

So Even Gnani after true ‘Self’-realization must be a player of these duality forces.
Look at all the Sages, many including Ramana, Krishnamurti, Nisargadatta, all died of cancer type illness if I am not mistaken. So this to me is evidence that forces of karma will play out even for Enlightened Gnani.

So yes Karma is an illusion at Soul witness, but to take part on Earth as a human being, means living with "what is" or karma effects of past.

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Dearest T L Bown,

 Santthosh Kumaar:~

As per my conviction: ~

Those Gurus who propagate Karma as the means to Self-realization belongs to religion and yoga, not spirituality.

When the ‘Self’ is not the form but ‘Self’ is formless then whose karma. The one which is born lives and dies is not the ‘Self’ then the question of karma does not arise. 

You are the false ‘Self’ (ego) within the false experience (waking). Thus, whatever action and inaction, the past, present, and future belong to the waking experience, which is the dualistic illusion.

What happens to the dream entity which did good karma in the dream world and it died and reincarnated in the next life and suffered but when waking takes place the dream becomes unreal.

The waking becomes unreal when waking entity (you) realizes the fact that it itself (you) are not the ‘Self’ but the ‘Self’ is the formless Soul, which witnesses the coming and going of the three states in succession.  

Thus, neither karma of waking entity nor the karma of the dream entity has meaning because the ‘Self’ is neither the waking entity nor the ‘Self’ is a dream entity but the ‘Self’ is the formless Soul.  

You are not the ‘Self’ because you are the birth entity; you are bound by form, time and space whereas the ‘Self’ is birthless then how the karma theory has any meaning when the karma theory based on the false ‘Self’ (birth entity) and false experience (world).  

The karma theory is a religious fable meant for the people who are fully immersed in the practical life and practical world believing the experience of the birth, life, death and the world as reality.   If ‘Self’ is birthless then what values the karma theory will have because it is based on birth, life, death, and rebirth.

Thus, as per my conviction, the Karma theory is merely a  religious and yogic fable.

Yes, Ramana, J. Krishnamurti, Nisargadatta, all died of cancer type illness. It does not make any difference if they died of cancer or not of cancer or any illness. Even Lord Krishna died of a painful death.  The death is certain but the cause of death is irrelevant to a Gnani. When the ‘Self’ is birthless then it is deathless. A Gnani is unconcerned to death because he is fully aware that the illusion is only a passing show.

The last words of Sage Ramana on the deathbed: - he says I am not going anywhere. He did not mean that his physical form, which was bound by birth, life and death but the birthless ‘Self’, which is ever formless, timeless and spaceless existence.  Thus, the karma theory is nothing to do with birthless ‘Self’. Thus people’s painful death cannot be taken as evidence because of the Soul, the ‘Self’ is ever deathless because it is birthless because it is the formless, timeless and spaceless existence.

The karmic account is never-ending because one has to be born again and again to reap his good or bad karma carried forward one life to the next.   To end his karmic account he has to be born as a Muslim in his next birth because Islam does not believe in karma theory. 

   

As per Sage Sri, Sankara: ~

The path of religion, the theory of karma, the path of yoga and the path of wisdom were intended for different classes of people. The wisdom is for the advanced seekers of truth. It deals with the nature of the ultimate Truth and Reality. It is meant for superior aspirants who have an inner urge to know the truth and it is not for those who are immersed in earthly desires.

The one which is born lives and dies in this world is not the Self. the world in which we exist is the dualistic illusion created out of the Soul, the Self, which is present in the form of consciousness.  Thus, whatever karmas perfumed within the dualistic illusion is bound to be an illusion.

Sage Sri Sankara says in Aparoksh Anubhuti: ~88. When the whole universe, movable and immovable, is known to be Atman, and thus the existence of everything else is negated, where is then any room to say that the body is Atman?

   89. O enlightened one, pass your time always contemplating on Atman while you are experiencing all the results of Prarabdha; for it ill becomes you to feel distressed.

   90. The theory one hears of from the scripture, that Prarabdha does not lose its hold upon one even after the origination of the knowledge of Atman, is now being refuted.

   91. After the origination of the knowledge of Reality, Prarabdha verily ceases to exist, inasmuch as the body and the like become non-existent; just as a dream does not exist in waking.

   92. That Karma which is done in a previous life is known as Prarabdha (which produces the present life). But such Karma cannot take the place of Prarabdha (for a man of knowledge), as he has no other birth (being free from ego).

   93. Just as the body in a dream is superimposed (and therefore illusory), so is also this body. How could there be any birth of the superimposed (body), and in the absence of birth (of the body) where is the room for that (i.e., Prarabdha) at all?

   94. The Vedanta texts declare ignorance to be verily the material (cause) of the phenomenal world just as the earth is of a jar. That (ignorance) being destroyed, where can the universe subsist?

   95. Just as a person out of confusion perceives only the snake leaving aside the rope, so does an ignorant person see only the phenomenal world without knowing the reality?

   96. The real nature of the rope being known, the appearance of the snake no longer persists; so the substratum being known, the phenomenal world disappears completely.

   97. The body also being within the phenomenal world (and therefore unreal), how could Prarabdha exist? It is, therefore, for the understanding of the ignorant alone that the Shruti speaks of Prarabdha.

   98. “And all the actions of a man perish when he realizes that (Atman) which is both the higher and the lower”. Here the clear use of the plural by the Shruti is to negate Prarabdha as well.

   99. If the ignorant still arbitrarily maintain this, they will not only involve themselves into two absurdities but will also run the risk of forgoing the Vedantic conclusion. So one should accept those Shrutis alone from which proceeds true knowledge.

Thus, the karma theory is based on the birth entity and it is a reality only for those people who believe the individual experience of birth, life, death and the world as a reality. Sage  Sankara says the world is an illusion.  

If the world is an illusion then the individual experience of birth, life, and death which takes place within the illusory world is bound to be an illusion.

If the world is an illusion all the karmas performed within the illusory world are bound to be an illusion.

Remember:~

Sage Goudpada says:~ The merciful Veda teaches karma and Upasana to people of lower and middling intellect, while Jnana is taught to those of higher intellect.

Sage  Sankara: ~ “Action (karma) cannot destroy ignorance, for it is not in conflict with or opposed to ignorance. Knowledge does verily destroy ignorance as light destroys deep darkness. -Atma Bodha

The main purpose of Self-realization is to get rid of ignorance. If karma does not destroy the ignorance then what is the use of sticking to karma theory. Only people of lower and middling intellect stick to karma and Upasana and those of higher intellect chose the path of wisdom or Atmic path. 

Sage Goudpada says that ~ “The merciful Veda teaches karma and Upasana to people of lower and middling intellect while Jnana is taught to those of higher intellect.

The Advaitic wisdom is not for the ignorant people who follow the path of Karma.

First Mundaka - Chapter 2 (9):~ “Children, immersed in ignorance in various ways, flatter themselves, saying: We have accomplished life's purpose. Because these performers of karma do not know the Truth owing to their attachment, they fall from heaven, misery-stricken, when the fruit of their work is exhausted.

The theory of karma belongs to theistic Advaita is nothing to with the Advaitic wisdom. The karma theory is based on the individual experience of the birth, life, death, and the world as a reality whereas Sage Sri, Sankara says the world is an illusion.

Thus, whatever karma performed within the illusory world is bound to be an illusion. The karma theory is meant for the ignorant who are the followers of the Advaitic orthodox path. The Advaitic orthodox path is meant for the ignorant populace. Those who follow the Karma theory are not qualified for Self-knowledge or Brahma Gnana or Atma Gnana.

Ish Upanishads: ~ “Avidya” is Karma and, therefore, a hindrance.

According to Advaita Vedanta, the Veda addresses itself to two kinds of audiences:~

1. The ordinary ones who desire the transitory heaven and other pleasures obtained as a result of ritual sacrifices,

2. The more advanced seeker who seeks to know Brahman.

Thus, the Purva mimam.sa, with its emphasis on the karma kanda of the Vedas, is meant for the first audience, to help lead its followers along the way.

The Vedanta, with its emphasis on the jnana kanda, is meant for those who wish to go beyond such transient pleasures.

Ish Upanishad says:~ Those people who have neglected the attainment of Self-knowledge and have thus committed suicide

Sage Sankara: ~ “Action (karma) cannot destroy ignorance, for it is not in conflict with or opposed to ignorance. Knowledge does verily destroy ignorance as light destroys deep darkness. -Atma Bodha

Sage Sankara said:~Talk as much philosophy as you like, worship as many Gods as you please, observe ceremonies, and sing devotional hymns, but liberation will never come, even after a hundred aeons, without realizing the Oneness.

In the theistic analysis, human life and behavior are explained on the basis of the theory of karma, which sets the cycle of rebirths into motion. All actions, good or bad, create their own karmic residues called vasanas, which exhibit their results over a period of time.

The karma which has already started taking fruit is called Prarabdha Karma. This is the karma that is responsible for the current birth. The accumulated karma which is yet to take fruit is called sanchit karma. As long as the cycle of rebirth continues, more karma will be done in the future, and this is called Agamin karma. Liberation (moksha) is the way out of this endless cycle.

The most valuable contribution of Sage Sankara is that he gained general consciousness on the issue that the authoritative explanation of Upanishads, Gita and Brahma Sutra was the final say in the matter of religion. Anything that goes contrary to the trio is not authentic. He also made a clear distinction between Vedas and Upanishads in his commentary on Gita. He stated that the Karma Kanda of the Vedas deals with the injunctions relating to the performance of duties and actions. These are for ordinary householders.

The path of religion, the path of yoga and the path of wisdom were intended for different classes of people. The wisdom is for the advanced seekers of truth. It deals with the nature of the ultimate Truth and Reality. It is meant for superior aspirants who have an inner urge to know the truth and it is not for those who are immersed in earthly desires.

Sage Sankara’s whole teaching can be summed up in one sentence, ‘There is nothing else but Brahma. He says that Absolute Existence, absolute knowledge, and Absolute Bliss are real. The universe is not real.

Sage Sankara says that Brahma and Atman are one. The ultimate and the Absolute Truth is the Self, which is one though appearing as many in different individuals. The individual has no reality. Only the Self is real; the rest, mental and physical are but passing appearances.

 In fact, Sage Sankara states a paradox- the world is and is not. It is neither real nor unreal. It leads us to recognize the existence of Maya.

Sage Sankara gave religion, ritual, karma to the ignorant masses, as well as Advaitic wisdom to those who are seriously seeking the truth of their true existence.

Those who have taken Path of wisdom or Atmic path should discard the karma theory which is meant for the orthodox ignorant populace.

The person who bases on the birth, life, and death,  is trying to find the meaning of life. There is no meaning or purpose of life because life is mere happening within the dualistic illusion. Thus, the Karma theory based on the physical entity is based on the birth, life, and death, which is part and parcel of the dualistic illusion. : ~Santthosh Kumaar